Lauren and Jayden

Lauren's powers are duplicated from Jayden's, just like Kaoru Shiba's were from Takeru's. We see her being given Jayden's set of power discs. She is not a seperate ranger, and does not take his powers away from him. There is never a time, like with the Shibas, where both transform at the same time. Lauren IS a 7th ranger, but she is NOT seperate from Jayden.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 14:13,9/24/2012 

Yes there is. Lauren/Kaoru are fighting with the other rangers at the same time that Jayden/Takeru is fighting against Deker/Juzo. Two morphers, two sets of (identical) powers. It's only the super modes and zords that are shared. And super modes are one person at a time anyway. We just never see both reds in the same scene. It's not like MMPR, where Rocky replaced Jason, who later reclaimed the powers prior to Forever Red. In that case, Jason and Rocky both used the same power source (Tyrannosaurus Power Coin). Jayden and Lauren don't even have the same morpher. By the way, Dchallofjustice agrees with me. We've both tried to make this exact edit on the Category:Samurai Rangers page, so you're outvoted on the matter.  Digifiend  Talk  PR/SS  KR  MH  TOKUPEDIA  LOGOPEDIA  DW  14:30,9/24/2012 

Sadly, this proves you wrong --> (18:40-19:40). Jayden gives everything to Lauren and leaves the Shiba house, so the powers are the same. In-show evidence overrides personal opinion. If you both re-add the wrong info, it will be reverted.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 14:36,9/24/2012 

Remember also that Takeru and Kaoru both had their own morphers, yet the powers were known to be duplicated, which Gokaiger clarified. This scene was taken right out of Shinkenger, with the exception that Lauren's morpher is a Shodophone versus Jayden's (American) Samuraizer. The two situations are fundamentally and physically identical to one another. Therefore, they are the same power source, just like in Shinkenger's case.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 14:39,9/24/2012 

I'll go one step further even - to quote you from above, "Two morphers, two sets of (identical) powers". This means they're identical (the same thing I'm telling you), and that negates the edits you and DC are trying to make (in error).  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 14:44,9/24/2012 

No it does not. Two sets of powers produced two Ranger Keys in Gokaiger. There aren't two keys for any other powers used by two different people. You're the one who is wrong. Gokaiger actually proves you wrong, it doesn't clarify what you're saying at all.  Digifiend  Talk  PR/SS  KR  MH  TOKUPEDIA  LOGOPEDIA  DW  19:41,9/24/2012 

Watch the video - Jayden did not stop being a ranger when Lauren came on board - she took his place, she did not join him. It is ONE set of powers, not TWO. Gokaiger and Shinkenger both prove it correct because they used the exact same sequence! If there are 2 sets of powers, then tell me why Jayden didn't use his! He didn't because Lauren was using them!  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 21:30,9/24/2012 

Here's the quote from Kaoru Shiba's page: "Although they never fight side-by-side, both Shinken Reds are implied to be able to transform at the same time since they each have their own Shodophone," (Jayden and Lauren both have their own Samurizers!) " as Kaoru never took Takeru's from him." (Which Lauren did NOT do to Jayden) " However, it should be noted that prior to the Legend War, there was not one scene where Takeru and Kaoru were shown to use the Shinken Red powers at the exact same time." (Jayden and Lauren did NOT use their powers at the same time!) " Every time one was using the power, the other was in a situation where, coincidentally, the power was not used." (Which also occurred in Super Samurai). This is lifted word-for-word right off Kaoru's page (my commentary is in parenthesis). No, you and DC are wrong - it is ONE power used by TWO people. There was never a scene with TWO Red Samurai Rangers in it. Therefore, your edits are wrong. That is why we're reverting them!  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 21:34,9/24/2012 

Coincidences don't mean much. Jayden could have conceivably morphed at the same time as Lauren, but that would have had (possible) problems within the Morphing Grid. Both of them had their own morphers, which linked them to the grid. Since Jayden was still a ranger even when Lauren took his place, his connection to the Morphing Grid was still active, even though when Lauren was fighting morphed, Jayden wasn't. It's well known that you can't have two of the same power being used at the same time. So, through how the Morphing grid works, it's either completely coincidental that one was morphed and the other wasn't, or that Lauren's morpher counts her as a 7th ranger in terms of the grid, hence they have seperate powersGaeaman788 (talk) 23:17, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

The same is true in Shinkenger. Takeru and Kaoru could have morphed at the same time, but clearly did not. The morphing grid has not been mentioned in Samurai or Super Samurai - therefore there is no guarantee it is even in effect (you can't argue with evidence that isn't there). Plus, to further that line of thought, the grid could have allowed them to morph at the same time, accessing the same powers - whether it would have done so or not, we'll never know because it was neither shown nor explained. With two separate morphers, it could have happened if they were seperate connections, which would still mirror the Shinkenger events. From the facts that we do have available to us, they are one in the same - and thus the edits in question are wrong. Therefore, it is completely coincidental that one was morphed and the other was not. Keep in mind, that because Takeru and Kaoru both received ranger keys in Gokaiger, Kaoru still counted as a 7th (Extra) ranger and by definition Lauren still does as well. However, she is accessing the same powers (with no differences) as Jayden just like Kaoru did with Takeru.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 23:56,9/24/2012 

I am glad that you mention this, Gaeaman, because it is a throwback to my first remark: "Lauren's powers are duplicated from Jayden's, just like Kaoru Shiba's were from Takeru's.". By the rules of the Morphing Grid, you can't have two of the same power - which would, by definition, mean one of two things: 1) Jayden and Lauren were accessing the same powers via 2 different morphers (supported by the video where Lauren receives the Black Box and discs as well as her having a Shodophone for a Samuraizer, since if they were different she'd have her own Black Box and discs); or 2) The powers are duplicated but represent the same thing. In either case, the listing of Jayden >> Lauren remains correct.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 00:20,9/25/2012 

They're both the Red Samurai Ranger. The Morphing Grid is a plot point in Power Rangers, mentioned or not. It was established in Overdrive that was how all Rangers accessed their powers. But then again, would we classify Karone as a 7th Ranger, since she, like Lauren, accessed a pre-existing Ranger's powers, only for that Ranger to take them back later on?Gaeaman788 (talk) 01:27, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Then if they're both the Red Samurai Ranger, they would be listed correctly as Jayden >> Lauren like I've had it. As for Karone, that's an interesting question because Saya was the only GingaPink in Gingaman, whereas Valerie Vernon had to be replaced in mid-season. From a PR universe perspective, it would be interesting to see how Saban handles that. I'm not sure how I would - for one, I would say yes because she used the Pink Powers and was an active ranger (and thus should be counted) and yet I would also say no because she used Kendrix's morpher to do it. I could really see Karone going either way.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 01:32,9/25/2012 

I would say no, because the power was no longer with the original, as is with the case of Kirenger, Battle Cossack, Miss America, VulEagle, Yellow Four, Red Mighty Morphin Ranger, Yellow Mighty Morphin Ranger, Black Mighty Morphin Ranger, Pink Mighty Morphin Ranger, Gold Zeo Ranger, Red Turbo Ranger, Green Turbo Ranger, Yellow Turbo Ranger, Pink Turbo Ranger, and Magna Defender, etc.  DigiRanger  Talk  PR/SS  KR  MH  Toku  01:40,9/25/2012 

That's the way I was leaning, though I could see it both ways. Still, Saban will want to address that somehow to acknowledge Karone as a ranger. Any idea how he could do that?  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 01:45,9/25/2012 

Probably sticking Karone in a LG or Space tribute episode. Point is that Lauren and Jayden both have the title of Red Samurai Ranger.Gaeaman788 (talk) 01:48, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

And thus, Jayden >> Lauren is correct.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 01:52,9/25/2012 

Didn't the Legend War plus the fact that there were two Ranger Keys that came from it clarify this yet? Also all the keys that have had their powers passed on existed in one key each. Dchallofjustice  Talk  PR/SS  KR  JLU/DCUC  MH  TOKU  16:54,9/25/2012 

(since this reply came after the below) DC, even if you go that route, they still hold the same title and it is still wrong as you wanted to put it. 2 sources of power accessing the same powers (as noted in the trivia on Kaoru Shiba's page). If I recall correctly, you yourself wrote that. Because the powers are duplicated, there were 2 ranger keys. But there was only ever one Shinken Red because when one used the power, the other did not. Same thing in Super Samurai.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 13:12,9/26/2012 

Quick suggestion for a resolution. Vote on it (admins), then note the possible dissent in the pages the information will appear in.  Dchallofjustice  Talk  PR/SS  KR  JLU/DCUC  MH  TOKU  16:58,9/25/2012 

We already solved the issue. They both hold the title of Red Samurai Ranger / Shinken Red, hence it is Jayden>Lauren>Jayden.Gaeaman788 (talk) 23:43, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Not quite yet. We'll put it up to a vote just to make sure the contention is Clearly covered. 103.5.63.173

A vote isn't necessary. The evidence and facts themselves dictate it is Jayden > Lauren > Jayden. 2 power sources accessing the same powers.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 13:12,9/26/2012 

Sorry that was me unlogged. I used an app, which didn't register my username. I say put it to a vote because everyone who has presented their sides is using facts from the show and interpreting it, as seen in the above transcript, and in the administration, we are divided. Thus a vote is the most diplomatic thing we could do. (As opposed to pointing out that co-admin's edits will be reverted.) There's no worry here, as if there's more of us that believe we should list them in succession rather than separately, then it's well and good.  Dchallofjustice  Talk  PR/SS  KR  JLU/DCUC  MH  TOKU  15:18,9/26/2012 

Let me simplify this based on what we posit in the above discussion:

Sequential (same name, Jayden hands Lauren the powers):Nbajammer, Gaeaman, DigiRanger

Separate (two separate existing ranger powers):Digifiend, Dchallofjustice

Guys, just modify this if I placed your names in the wrong vote.  Dchallofjustice  Talk  PR/SS  KR  JLU/DCUC  MH  TOKU  15:25,9/26/2012 

This'll end up tied. Why not take Super Sentai out of the equasion? Lauren uses her morpher to become the Red Samurai Ranger. Gaeaman788 (talk) 15:31, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. The scene is identical to Shinkenger. She assumes the same position as Jayden, just like Kaoru did Takeru. Megaforce's 2nd season may clarify this, but based on the facts we have right now, they are one and the same. If Gokaiger's footage gets used, then there should be 2 ranger keys and they'll still be the same because of the reasoning on Kaoru Shiba's page. You're making this far more trivial than it really needs to be. Furthermore, you still see only ONE Red Samurai Ranger. The evidence, and the show, explicitly shows they are the same.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 15:34,9/26/2012 

It's tied now as it is. We've all given our points. To avoid going around in circles, Digi is the fifth current active admin, so let's let that vote decide.  Dchallofjustice  Talk  PR/SS  KR  JLU/DCUC  MH  TOKU  15:36,9/26/2012 

The problem is, if he votes Separate, then we're adding false information to the wiki, in violation of the rules. The evidence in the show is pretty clear on what the situation is. Shinkenger (the source footage) also supports that.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 15:44,9/26/2012 

Not really. All of us are using various points in the franchise to prove our point. I don't need to rehash ours as they've already been presented and so have yours. Both of our sides believe the other is wrong, and this is all based on in-show stuff. See? That's why we need a vote. Because it's a matter of interpretation. Once the vote is set, we present the opposite opinion in a note. Dchallofjustice  Talk  PR/SS  KR  JLU/DCUC  MH  TOKU  15:57,9/26/2012 

But the evidence DOES prove your point wrong. Where in Super Samurai do we see 2 Red Samurai Rangers morphed at the same time? As Gaeaman pointed out, that is impossible due to how the Morphing Grid works. While I would say that doesn't matter because it is neither mentioned nor referenced, it is supported anyway by the video link I posted. Your point would have Lauren with her own Black Box and set of discs, but as the referenced scene shows, Jayden hands her his. There is absolutely nothing in the show to support 2 simultaneous Red Samurai Rangers. That is why your edits are wrong and false information. There really is no need to vote on this - the evidence is very clear. And as I pointed out above, Digifiend's "evidence" only supports OUR point, because of the connection to the same scene in Shinkenger! Do tell me WHY and HOW this is so hard for you to see? It is VERY clear!  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 16:19,9/26/2012 

I'm just gonna put this here in case anyone didn't catch my points.

• Different, distinct morphers which allowed both to transform on their own (without having to check on the other and risk 'draining' or 'turning them off') as well as function with symbol power.
• Discs and Black Box are inconsequential (Additional discs are one a piece. Black Box is one a piece. That's how all seven rangers operate.)
• Lauren arriving on-scene already able to transform.
• No power transfer. Duplicate power (not overtly stated as 'one' power. Duplicate means two after all)
• You could discount Sentai but note that for all the rangers at least, each changer/morpher had one ranger key equivalent. That's just sort of a wave hello.

These are all valid points. Given that two admins consider their points valid and in-show and two others say the opposite, just wait for the vote. Votes are there so we don't argue again and again.  Dchallofjustice  Talk  PR/SS  KR  JLU/DCUC  MH  TOKU  16:31,9/26/2012 

Our points:

• Only one Red Samurai Ranger is ever morphed at a time
• One position as head of the Shiba clan (with Red as the lead), i.e. only one Red Samurai Ranger
• You do not ever see two Red Samurai Rangers morphed at the same time
• Two morphers can access the same powers, as long as only one is in use at a time (happened in Lost Galaxy with Karone, who used Kendrix's morpher)
• Both morphers use the same equipment (and zords) for the same purpose. Separated would require 2 of everything.
• Lauren did not take Jayden's morpher, only his place on the team
• Jayden, as a fill-in for Lauren, must be able to use what would've been Lauren's powers (in order to fill her role), thus needing his own morpher connected to the same power (and explains why she could morph out of the gate, as the true Shiba head)
  • Coincidentally, Shinkenger - source footage for Samurai and Super Samurai - also had 2 morphers but were distinguished as duplicated powers (i.e. 2 of the same power). This was validated in Gokaiger with 2 separate ranger keys with identical functionality.
• The Morphing Grid (unmentioned and unreferenced in the show) has traditionally stated that you can't have two of the same power being used at the same time (See the White Dino Ranger's clone from Dino Thunder). Thus 2 Red Samurai Rangers cannot co-exist, which is why they don't morph simultaneously. As the same power, they could (conceivably). If both morphers had separate connections they definitely could, but this is not shown to be the case. For them to be separate, they would have to co-exist which the Morphing Grid strictly forbids.
• Jayden and Lauren have the same title, Red Samurai Ranger. If Lauren were separate, hers would differ.
• Lauren returns Jayden's position to him at the end of the series. Additional rangers don't give their position up.
• You only ever see 6 (or fewer) Samurai Rangers at once. You never see 7 at once.
• Lauren was able to access Super Mode because her powers and Jayden's are duplicated. When Jayden unlocked this power, it unlocked for Lauren as well. If Lauren were separate, she would not be able to access Super Mode without unlocking it on her own. This suggests that both morphers access the same powers, thus making them one in the same as opposed to separate.
• Lauren and Jayden use the same powers, because she was able to walk right into Jayden's Lion Folding Zord and pilot it out of the gate. Traditionally, additional ranger have had their own zord.
• Lauren's suit looks exactly like Jayden's, except with a skirt added. If she was separate, her suit would be fundamentally different as opposed to the female version of a male one. (see Red Time Force Ranger vs. Quantum Ranger, where they look similar but Quantum is black, not white)
• The story arc is lifted directly out of Shinkenger Acts 44-49, with the only difference being Lauren's relation to Jayden (as opposed to Kaoru's relation to Takeru). What holds true for Shinkenger, then, also holds true for Super Samurai.

All of this is seen directly in the show. When determining facts for the wiki, we are to utilize the evidence, not opinions. The evidence clearly shows two rangers accessing the same powers via separate morphers.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 16:56,9/26/2012 

Right, points given from both opinions (by opinion I mean that supported by interpretations of evidence, and not guesswork by either side), so we wait out for the vote.  Dchallofjustice  Talk  PR/SS  KR  JLU/DCUC  MH  TOKU  17:03,9/26/2012 

Well, Nbajammer and Gaeaman certainly have many more points (Disregarding Kendrix/Karone as that was just one morpher and Trent/Clone as Trent wasn't even morphed when he was being affected), so I'm going to go with leave them as they are for now, despite that Jayden still had power, with a minor edit.  DigiRanger  Talk  PR/SS  KR  MH  Toku  18:19,9/26/2012 

Alright. Settled then.  Dchallofjustice  Talk  PR/SS  KR  JLU/DCUC  MH  TOKU  00:36,9/27/2012 

I see we're now using a slash rather than an arrow. That seems like a fair solution.  Digifiend  Talk  PR/SS  KR  MH  TOKUPEDIA  LOGOPEDIA  DW  23:54,9/27/2012 

How about this picture will that do?

The decision has already been made. Furthermore, that picture is of Captain Marvelous and Ahim de Famille transformed using the Shinken Red and Princess Shinken Red ranger keys, so that does not apply. The status in Shinkenger has also long been clarified.

 Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 13:36,10/19/2012 

Both Red Samurai Rangers with two Fire Smashers right?

Wrong. 2 Gokaigers using 2 Shinken Red ranger keys. The decision has been made and is final. It is not up for further discussion.  Nbajammer  Talk  RW  KR  MH  Toku  Kikaider  UM  GZ  TokuFanon  BS  SH  RE  FF  CT  SO  DQ 23:59,10/20/2012